Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

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cagles
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Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

I am having the exact same problem as "cglory".  My gray has turned a bright cooper!  Being I have a great deal in the temple area and my hair is short, I look ridiculous!  This time I had added more indigo then henna.  The rest of my hair turned out way too dark!  There is now such a contrast between the real dark and the cooper.  I hate it.  Why is it that the gray will pick up the reds but not the dark?  I tried doing just the temples, but my hair is short so it was impossible to avoid it.

What can I do to correct it?  I am a bit desperate.

 

I am using Celebration Henna and I left the combination on for 3.5 hours.

Carrie
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

If your gray is mainly concentrated at the temples, you can do a second step of indigo alone on the gray areas. Try leaving it on 15-25 minutes ... a few minutes too long and it could go all the way to black, so be a little cautious with the timing. This usually works quite well.

If your gray is more spread out, you could use an indigo gloss (indigo diluted in conditioner or flaxseed gel or xanthan gum solution) all over. This would darken your gray a bit, not as much as full strength indigo, but it would darken the rest of your hair less than full-strength indigo would ... kind of a compromise.

For future roots applications, you may want to include some amla in your henna portion. Use amla as your acidic ingredient when you first mix up the henna paste. This helps you get better uptake, particularly from the indigo.

Most people get browner results from their hendigo mix if they leave it on for 1.5 to 2 hours, rather than a longer application. Longer apps give henna more time to deposit dye so it overpowers the short-lived indigo.

Here is an FAQ you may find helpful, to be sure you're doing everything possible to overcome the dye resistance of your gray:

http://forums.hennapage.com/node/22

cagles
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

I actually always use alma when mixing the henna paste. 

So your saying leave the hendigo on for a shorter time and that may help with the coppery gray?  So how much henna to indigo do you suggest?

Carrie
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

If you have 25% amla to 75% henna in your mix, then a 50/50 mix of henna to indigo should give you a dark cool brown. If you want darkest brown, then 2 parts indigo to 1 part henna.

Carrie
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

As a last resort, if you just can't get good indigo uptake with henna/indigo in a 1-step process on your gray you may need to move on to a 2-step process. Henna with amla first, rinse, and then apply either indigo for a short time (maybe 15-30 minutes, too long makes black) or a henna/indigo mix for 1.5 to 2 hours (less likely to produce black). As always, you'll want to switch to roots-only once you've achieved the desired color on the length - with indigo this is especially important because it will go black with multiple applications.

I only say "last resort" because it's a more time-consuming process.

cglory
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Carrie, since I am having the same issue of coppery red grey, I am keeping track of your suggestions on this post. In the 2-step process you recommend above, how long should the henna with amla be kept on the hair? I have the heating cap now and will be using it. I then plan to use henna-indigo mix and not just indigo. How much time would you recommend for it under the heated cap. From your last reponse in my posting, you mentioned that I should cut the time in half for the heated pad.  Should I keep the hendigo just an hour?

cangles, I didn't mean to hijack your thread! I am hoping to fine tune the recipe from any advice and education I get here. I am desperate.

Thanks!

Carrie
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Normally for a 2-step process you leave the initial henna on for at least 2 hours, but with a heat cap I think you could do 60 to 90 minutes. You need enough henna in the hair as a base to help the indigo bond well with the hair. For the hendigo step with heat you may only need 30 to 60 minutes. Megumi basically cuts the time in half when the client sits under the hairdryer.

You may find this old thread helpful - the hairdresser Megumi is advising someone about how to get good gray coverage without overly darkening her brown hair. She describes how to do a 2-step for a brown outcome on gray hair.

http://www.hennaforhair.com/forum/index.php?module=phpwsbb&PHPWSBB_MAN_OP=view&PHPWS_MAN_ITEMS[]=11192

Nicole decided to go with a 1 step process instead: here are her results:

http://www.hennaforhair.com/forum/index.php?module=phpwsbb&PHPWSBB_MAN_OP=view&PHPWS_MAN_ITEMS[]=11619

here is Megumi's advice for doing maintenance and roots with this mix, since there was a bit of fading on the length the first time:

http://www.hennaforhair.com/forum/index.php?module=phpwsbb&PHPWSBB_MAN_OP=view&PHPWS_MAN_ITEMS[]=12122

cglory
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Thank you very much! Need to experiment more. I wish Jen or other henna hair dressers from Henna for Hair were available in my neck of the woods.

cagles
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Jen, Carrie, Cglory,

I re-did my hair again last night with a henndigo (more henna than indigo this time, previously it was a little more indigo than henna) and the coppery sides still did not pick up any of the indigo. Remember I am the one that is primarily very gray at the temples and my hair is very short. I am very reluctant to do just the indigo on the sides as the rest of my hair has turned pretty dark from the previous applications.  I am not liking it at all.  I know this will eventually fade but for now that short copper area sticks out like a sore thumb next to the rest of the dark hair.  What about doing just a buxus instead of the indigo?  Also I read all the past threads that cglory posted and I noticed one said that Nicole let the henna sit only about 1.5 hours before mixing it with the indigo.  Was this a typo?  She also put the alma in at the end.  This is all really getting confusing.

cglory
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Cagles,

I can relate to your frustration and confusion since I too am going through the same. But it appears to me that unless we have an expert like Jen, Carri, Megumi or ACWN or any other Henna expert hair stylist available to work with in person , this is going to be a struggle with constant trial runs until we figure out what works best for us. Some one suggested another method on my other thread. Here is the link.

http://forums.hennapage.com/node/1444

I do hope that you get the results you want and like. 

Carrie
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

cagles, you can do a buxus treatment instead of indigo if you want. A full strength buxus paste left on coppery hennaed hair for 15 minutes will make it golden brown. On a strand of hennaed hair that was darker (more deep red to auburn), I applied buxus paste for 35 or 45 minutes, and got darker brown, still slightly reddish.

Buxus does tend to fade more than indigo, from what I've seen. For me it fades about 50% in 3 weeks. It is also a weaker dye than buxus and if you do a gloss with buxus you'll want to add more of the powder than you would with a henna or an indigo gloss.

cagles
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Carrie,

When you say a buxus paste, you mean just mixing water with the buxus powder and applying to the hair?  It does not need to be added to henna, right? This would be done as the 2nd step to the henna application?  Or do you mean as a gloss?

When you say to use more powder, how much are you referring to?  Does this have to be wrapped in cellophane and a towel and left for 15 minutes and then washed out?

I am sorry if I am shooting all these dumm questions at you but I have done so many hennas and as yet still have not been able to cover the gray.  I really don't want to go back to the chemical dyes but I also don't want to have this two tone hair.  It wouldn't be so bad if the gray were scattered (like Nicole) mine are mostly all clumped in one area (temples) and I look ridiculous!

 

I

Jen
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

People do use buxus as a gloss, but Carrie is referring here to a full strength treatment of just buxus mixed with water -no new henna.

Do a strand test first. Rinse one after 20 minutes and one after 40 and see which works for you. Personally, if I were going to only need to leave it in for 20 minutes, I'd put it in right before stepping into the shower and rinsing it out right before I get out. That way you wouldn't have to cover it up with plastic wrap. The steam will keep the paste moist and active, and dripping doesn't matter much in the shower. If 40 minutes is what works, then yes, I would cover it it just like a henna treatment.

Carrie
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

About using "more powder" for a buxus gloss, I mean that if you want a color result that's visible you'd probably need 2 to 3 Tbsp of buxus powder per cup of conditioner ... compared to indigo, where you may only need 1 Tbsp of powder per cup.

The rest of your questions Jen has already answered and I agree with her, though I have never tried leaving my plant dye application on my head uncovered ... novel idea! I probably would cover an indigo application in any case because it seems to me that letting air get to it interferes with its strength; not sure if buxus is the same in that regard.

Jen
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

ya, air exposure seems to turn indigo off like a switch! Covering well is a must for that one. In fact if you are just starting with plant dyes and slow at application, I might even be tempted to cover in parts as you apply! That indigo is picky stuff. You've really got to baby it.

cagles
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Thanks for your help Jen & Carrie!

One more question.  One says conditioner and one says just water.  Which is best to try?

Jen
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

A gloss is done with paste made the usually way and mixed into conditioner. That's for a dilute treatment. When used alone for a stronger treatment -just water.

cagles
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Jen

I did the buxus paste yesterday and left it on for only about 15 minutes just to be cautious. I am only doing the temple area so figured a gloss might be difficult for an isolated area.  I saw a slight difference so I know it would work if I left it on longer.  The issue is.....the paste was caking and falling off before I could even finish it!  What a mess it makes!  It was everywhere!  It got on some of my light towels and even though I washed them right away, they stained.  I have not had this problem with any of the other mixes.  Is there something else I shouold be putting in the mix besides water???

Jen
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

I know people use CMC in indigo, I don't know if anyone has tried it yet with buxus. It is annoyingly crumbly, I know. My best fix is to move fast, and use a mister bottle (like for plants) with water every few minutes to keep it damp. 

I have a set of towels I use just for coloring my hair. That way I don't have to worry if they get stained, and THEY DO!!!

cagles
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Re: Hair too Dark-Grey too Coppery

Thanks for the advise, Jen.  I will order some CMC as well as keep a spritzer handy.  Trying to do just the temples on very short hair, the buxus had nothing to hold on to while I was doing it.  Actually, I do keep old towels for henna.  I jumped into the shower to wash it off and somehow it got on my bath towel....green, green, green, bummer!

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