Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry question

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Nordlys
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Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry question

Hi ! I have still not gotten a clear answer regarding the way henna and cassia work together in a molecular level and how that affects the final hair color we can get. Here is the link to the original question from the old forum:

http://www.hennaforhair.com/forum/index.php?module=phpwsbb&PHPWSBB_MAN_OP=view&PHPWS_MAN_ITEMS[]=12180

 I have had three Henna/Cassia glosses in order to do my roots, after I did my first full application of Henna/Cassia last April. I am using 1.5 TBS Henna and 1.5 TBS Cassia with 250 ml conditioner for my root-glosses and I am letting the mix on my hair for three hours.

I hope someone can give me an answer regarding the Henna/Cassia binding. Thank you for any help in advance! 

CCartwrightJones
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

Cassia has a yellow dye molecule, which is larger than the lawsone molecule and doesn't not bind as quickly and efficiently to keratin as henna. 

If you have less henna proportionally in your mix, you'll get less red. Since henna is more efficient at binding with keratin, the red is apt to show more over time.

Henna and cassia aren't going to react to each other.  They'll simply send their yellow and red-orange molecules on into your keratin, in the proportion you put them in your hair ...

The cassia dye molecule also can be shifted badly by mineral salts and metals left in hair from washing in hard water. If you have hard water, all bets are off on color results.  If you've been washing your hair in highly mineralized water, you can get some seriously strange stuff. 

The way you're mixing it, I'm suprised you get much any color at all.

Nordlys
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

First of all thank you very much for your enlightening answer !

Here is the link of my first full  Henna/Cassia application with pics before and after. I must say that I am very pleased with the color I got :-) I used 100g BAQ 2 henna fom Pakistan and 98g Cassia Obovata, both from your online-shop, with lemon juice and left the paste on my hair for 4 hours.  Link:http://www.hennaforhair.com/forum/index.php?module=phpwsbb&PHPWSBB_MAN_OP=view&PHPWS_MAN_ITEMS[]=12149

Here is how the hair looks like after the first gloss (which I did btw to all the length of the hair)http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_happy_hippo/4916014364/

When it comes to the water I do not have any problems here where I live. Since the yellow molecule from cassia will fade out over time, If I understood right,  and the henna color will dominate on the hair, should I stop using the cassia on my mixes ?  And If so what amount of henna should I use for a future full application (not gloss) in order to achieve the same color I have now ?( I plan to continue with glosses for my roots for now and when my hair grows a lot more I would like to make a full application again ).  Here is some pictures of my roots after the third gloss I did which went only to the roots, http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_happy_hippo/4916064798/ and here is a picture of the whole hair ( from the same only roots gloss) http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_happy_hippo/4915461053/

Thank you once again for your help. Looking forward to your answer :-)

Carrie
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

Cassia's dye fades a little bit but not completely, on white hair. On hair your color I do not think you would notice the fading of cassia at all, especially not when you combine it with a dye that is so much stronger (henna).  Thus, I don't think the possible fading of cassia should factor into your decision at all. If you saw a color change in your hair over time it was because of continued oxidation darkening of the henna. It became less golden/orangey and more red/auburn/brownish simply from oxidation, not because the cassia color changed/faded.

Possible reasons to continue using cassia could include:

- you like the particular textural effects it has on your hair

- you like using a paste rather than a gloss, but you want less color than you get with full strength henna

- you find there is a color difference between a cassia/henna mix and a henna gloss, and you prefer the look of a cassia/henna mix. (I don't find much of a color difference since cassia's dye is faint. My hair is lighter than yours, so I should be able to see more of a difference, if one exists)

 

Possible reasons to just do a henna gloss instead of a cassia/henna mix:

- you don't find there is a color difference, as described above

- you can save money (cheap conditioner is cheaper than cassia)

- you don't like the textural effects of cassia

 

As far as how much henna to put in your gloss ... I use the exact same quantity of henna in a henna gloss as in a cassia/henna mix.  For example, if my cassia/henna mix is 75 gm cassia and 25 gm henna, and I switch to a gloss instead, I would use 25 gm henna in my gloss.

Nordlys
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

 Thank you for your answer Carrie !! I think next time I do my roots I will try a henna gloss.

"As far as how much henna to put in your gloss ... I use the exact same quantity of henna in a henna gloss as in a cassia/henna mix.  For example, if my cassia/henna mix is 75 gm cassia and 25 gm henna, and I switch to a gloss instead, I would use 25 gm henna in my gloss."

Carrie how much conditioner would you use in the gloss in the example you gave above for the 25g henna, in order to achieve the same effect you would get from the cassia/henna mix ? Is it so that if I would do f.ex. all the length of my hair, lets say with 100g henna, then I would have to use 100 g conditioner instead of the 100 g cassia (50%-50% mix was my original cassia henna mix)? And in such a case do I mix the conditioner when I prepare the henna, or after dye release ? Sorry for all the questions , I just want to avoid doing something totally wrong...

Carrie
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

Carrie how much conditioner would you use in the gloss in the example you gave above for the 25g henna, in order to achieve the same effect you would get from the cassia/henna mix ?

  • Enough to cover your hair. Probably less than the amount of henna paste you use, because conditioner is thinner and spreads more easily.

Is it so that if I would do f.ex. all the length of my hair, lets say with 100g henna, then I would have to use 100 g conditioner instead of the 100 g cassia (50%-50% mix was my original cassia henna mix)?

  • 100 gm of henna powder would be mixed with perhaps twice that quantity of water, so it doesn't correspond to 100 gm of conditioner. Don't fuss about measuring the conditioner. Just have your henna paste prepared (freeze it for convenience sake, if you wish) and eyeball it, making as much as you think it will take, or a bit more. If you run out, make another small batch with your prepared paste.

And in such a case do I mix the conditioner when I prepare the henna, or after dye release ?

  • I like to do it with dye-released paste.
Nordlys
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

... I am a bit mixed up here, I am sorry if this gets tiresome but I think I fail to understand something basic here.

  • Is not the amount of conditioner used affecting the final color result, by diluting more or less the henna paste? Wont I get more red the less conditioner I use? Or is that completely wrong ? How much conditioner compensates for the 100g Cassia that will not be used ?
  • I used lemon juice to my first Henna/Cassia paste to get the mushed potatoes consistency then let it dye release. When the paste was ready to use, I added chamomile tea ( as much as needed to get the yoghurt consistency) and applied to my hair. If I do a whole length henna gloss now and use 100g henna, do I do all the same like before with only adjusting the fluids, and add the conditioner after the tea part ? Or do I omit the tea part ? I am a bit confused...
Jen
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

 

Yep, they still don't react with each other, they just bind to hair. 

Carrie
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

If you mean that normally you use 100 g each of henna and cassia, and you want to try using conditioner instead of the cassia, my guess (I have not measured this, so it is only a guess) is you will want to add around 8 to 10 oz of conditioner.  Yes, the dilution does matter, but the ultimate issue is how much lawsone gets absorbed into your hair. If you feel your gloss might be too concentrated, just leave it on your hair for less time and you'll get pretty much the same result as if you'd made it more diluted.

When I make henna paste or gloss, I never measure.

For your second question, you can do it either way. You can do everything the same and add that to conditioner. Or you can just get it to the mashed potato stage, let it release dye, and then add it at that point to conditioner; that way it won't be as thin and drippy.

Nordlys
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

Carrie thank you once more for your help !! Now I understand how to do it. The only question that remains is whether I will only touch up my roots or go for a whole length application...hmm I must admit that I am tempted to do a whole length application but I do not want to go so much darker either... Then again I use BAQ 2 henna from Pakistan which gives not so intense deep red but more orange-like color.

Would f.ex. a 3-hour full head application with 100 g henna-gloss make my hair go much darker than it is now? I am really tempted to find out !!!

Carrie
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Re: Attention: CCartwrightJones - Henna/Cassia chemistry ...

I think it would, especially as it continues to darken over weeks to come. If you don't want it darker, I would only do cassia on the length and your henna mix on the roots.

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